This transcription was created thanks to: Brittany Graham, Alissa Strunk, Andrew Wessels, JJ Dal, Todd Dodick & Ali Massie.

Intro:

Brenna (Narration): Hi, this is Brenna Quigley, your personal geologist and terroir guide. Join me on a roadtrip through the geologic history of your favorite wine regions around the world. 

This is Roadside Terroir. 

[Intro music]

Season 2, Burgundy’s Cote d’Or is made possible by our season 2 partners: Becky Wasserman and Company, La Paulee, and Acker Wines. 

We also want to thank the Wine Education Council for their support throughout the second half of this season.

This episode is sponsored by the Hitching Post Wines, in honor of the spiritual connection between Burgundy and Santa Barbara Co–the location of Roadside Terroir’s very first season.

Frank Ostini, the chef winemaker at HP Wines, reached out to me following the release of our Harvest Episode, and shared stories of his own early harvests in the 80s, singing the Ban Bourguignon with Jim Clendenen and Adam Tolmack, and a trip of a lifetime to Burgundy in 1988 to attend the Paulée de Meursault. 

The Hitching Post Wines and the Hitching Post II restaurant of Buellton CA, are iconic establishments in Santa Barbara County – memorialized forever in Sideways fame -- and deeply loved by locals. They offer the quintessential Santa Barbara wine and food experience – and encapsulate the soul and the terroir of the Santa Ynez Valley.

The Hitching Post has featured West Coast BBQ at its best since 1986 – offering lunch over picnic grounds and curated tasting experiences to complement the stunning views of the Santa Ynez mountains. Inspired by Burgundy they have made Santa Barbra Pinot Noir from many of the best vineyards in the Santa Rita Hills and Santa Maria Valley since 1984.

We’re determined to keep this content free and accessible for everyone. If you’d like to support our show, please consider becoming an Insider. Insiders have access to lots of cool stuff including extra photos, travel guides, and extended interviews with our guests. 

To learn more, visit our website roadsideterroir.com

Please, don’t drink and drive… and remember to keep your eyes on the road. 

This episode contains explicit language.

​

Part 1: Maranges - Cassiopee - Natural Wine

​

1.1 Opening – Hunt for Granite 

[Begins with the sound of a heavy car engine running; bass guitar music also plays over background sounds]

Brenna (Narration): After nearly two years, it’s hard to believe we’re on the last leg of our journey through the Côte d’Or. Throughout the past nine episodes we’ve explored some of the grandest terroirs on Earth, scoured the history books, and dug deep into the soils in order to understand what makes this piece of the planet so perfect for wine growing. But today we’re on the hunt for something new. Today, we’ll scan the Côte d’Or for appellations that are still on the horizon of greatness, and ask ourselves and all of the experts we know what the future might have in store for this historic place. As the world changes, prices — and oftentimes temperatures — in the Côte d’Or have soared. And both insiders and outsiders alike have begun to look for the next great vineyards on the slope.  Here’s Daniel Johnnes.

Daniel Johnnes: So the reflex is a little bit different now because whereas I used to go down and easily pull up a bottle of Chambolle Musigny or Volnay or some of the great appellations from my dear friends, I do pause a little bit more because the quantities are diminishing in my cellar; the replenishing of them is getting more and more difficult because of supply — it’s limited; and price — can’t ignore that small fact [saying sarcastically]. So what do we do? We are exploring again.

Brenna (Narrating): And here’s Paul Wasserman…

​

Paul Wasserman: Certainly, just north Beaune, Ladoix, Aloxe, Pernand, are incredible regions and very varied between the three terroirs, and that’s the place where people are finding super grape sources. Dijon is going to be reborn. That’s the chance to get in on ground zero and actually plant vineyards.

Brenna (Narration): Burgundy is a region filled with famous names. But there’s a pretty extensive list of up-and-coming ones too. Here’s Raj Parr.

​

[Fade in]

Rajat Parr: …around Dijon. That’s a really interesting area. Then again, the northern part of the Côte d’Or, around Marsannay, of course we have Sylvain Pataille doing amazing things , and then if you just look at the Haute Côte.. I've seen more bottling of Haute Côte in the last two years than the 20 years before that.

​

[Cut to Paul]

Paul Wasserman: The Haute Côte has become a huge buzzword. My only problem with Haute Côte is that it completely overshadows Côte D’, and especially Côte de Nuits.  Because THAT [emphasizing in tone] pocket, just south of Nuits Saint George and Cogorloin and Comblanchien, there’s amazing talent.

[Cut back to Raj]

Rajat Parr: …and also down in the Nuits-Saint-Georges area, Premeaux-Prissey and I think it’s going to continue to make amazing wines… Santenay, underrepresented. Maranges, Very, down south. 

Brenna (Narration): We begin our exploration of the future by heading south. Beyond the medieval walls of Beaune, past the white marls of Volnay, the fault at the top of Montrachet, the quarry of Chassagne, and into the often overlooked villages of Santennay and Maranges. These southern villages tend to have a reputation for rusticity, though, again, that tends to be a more recent interpretation of the wines. 

Rajat Parr: Santennay has already had a great past; Maranges is slightly more of a checkered past, but definitely a very bright future with some young producers already making delicious wines — and very uniquely different! Santenay being of slightly more finesse, maybe more flinty on the palate, but Maranges definitely has more kind of jagged edges on the wine so you definitely need a softer touch to make the wine and not too austere.

[Pensive music plays into transition]

Brenna (Narration): At the northern edge of the Côte d’Or you could sense things starting to feel different culturally as we neared the city of Dijon. But here as we neared the southern edge of the Côte d’Or things start to feel different geologically. 

Françoise Vannier: So we still have some things to see in the Santennay and Les Maranges because Les Maranges…

Brenna (Narration): Here’s our beloved local geological expert Françoise Vannier.

[Cut back to Françoise]

Françoise Vannier: …it’s an exception in the Côte de Beaune to find some gypsum. 

Brenna (Narration): As we continue south, the landscape begins to change dramatically. The continuous southeast facing slope of the Côte de Beaune begins to swing to the south as the Saône valley or Bresse Graben Intersects with another small valley. 

Françoise Vannier: And here, the river is” Dunn”, D-H-U-E-N-E, and its permian basins, so pull-apart basin, it started to form during the Devonian; it’s an Graben and the direction is north seventy (easterly) or something like that. 

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: There’s the Soane rift that demarcates Burgundy and then slightly sub-parallel to it is the Dhuene. 

Françoise: The Dhuene is north seventy.

Brenna (Narration): Françoise continues to explain that the Dhuene Valley reflects structures related with the assembly of Pangea, some 350 million years ago. Geologically, things are changing here too. The systematic parallel faults or step-stairs of the zone Graubin start splintering off as they intersect with these older, northeast trending faults. Looking to our left, we can see the slopes of the famed Aligoté vines of Bouzeron to the south, followed but the tilted limestone blocks of the Côte Chalonnaise. As we continue through Santenay and into Maranges, we enter into an even deeper, older section of geologic time. 

Françoise: Those are the roots of former mountains… 

[jumps to dialog]

​

[Brenna adds]

Brenna: And so those crystalline rocks are deep below all of these limestone.  

Françoise Vannier: Yes! Exactly! 200 meters, 300 meters below. And in le Maranges, there are outcroppings. That's why I wanted to go to le Maranges because in le Maranges you can see the granite in one place. It’s a Coteaux Bourguignon. It’s not… It’s like if you were in the Massif Centrale with a landscape (inaudible) with ferns, mosses, and something completely different because you’ve got granite there. And sandstone also because…

Brenna: We didn’t have time to explore the granite with Françoise, so on one of the last days of our trip, we set out to find it on our own.

[Interlude music - bass guitar & drums - narration begins to add contextual narration]

Brenna (Narration): For years now I’ve read books that mention vineyards of granite in and around Maranges but I’ve never seen it for myself, and honestly, until Françoise mentioned it, I was a little skeptical that there are actually vineyards in the Côte d’Or that grow on truly granitic soils, but as we drive into the village and through the vines we start to notice erratic pieces of pink, white, and black speckled granite nestled amongst the limestone blocks of old stone buildings. It must be here somewhere and we’re determined to find it. 

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: It’s snowing which means it's officially time to leave. 

[laughing] 

Starts singing Christmas carols [vaguely humming “Christmas time is here”.]

[jumps to narration]

Brenna (Narration): We drive around the three villages that make up Maranges - Dezize-lès-Maranges , Cheilly-lès-Maranges, Sampigny-lès-Maranges.  We follow the landscape, our instincts, and the hints in the buildings…

[Background conversation to the narration]

Brenna: So we’re back in front of the chapel in Sampigny…

Female: Yes, we’re in Sampigny.. which.. I’m just trying to orient us right here on this map.}

Brenna (Narration continues): …and eventually stumble upon an outcrop. 

[music plays in background, meanwhile in foreground, harsh hitting/chipping at a hard surface]

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: Pretty cool! It’s real! 

Woman: It’s real!

Brenna (Narration): We’ve found granite, but now we want to see it in a vineyard so we begin to climb up the slope, and regret it almost immediately as we get attacked by thorn bushes. 

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: At least it's not muddy!

Woman: [*bemoans*] Climbing through prickers! 

Brenna: Just all of a sudden we’re in like, thorn prison.

[Church bell rings lowly]

[jumps to narration]

Brenna (Narration): With a little luck, we break through into exactly what we were looking for — a vineyard at the top of the slope on pure granitic sands. 

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: You can see it! You can like, here. Imagine what you think granite looks like but on this side you see lines, and on the perpendicular side you see dots. Imagine something that was like, [pauses] that was like little circles, was stretched out into cigars. 

Woman: That’s awesome!

Brenna: Like actually, very deformed granite. Very old!

[Ladies review a map, paper is touched lightly and crinkles]

Woman: I think if we go down to our right…

​

Brenna, adding: To that vineyard?

Woman, continuing: Is the road right above us. 

​

Brenna: There were vineyards. I think like right here. Or were they right there? [giggles]

[jumps to narration]

Brenna (Narration): To be honest, we don’t exactly know where we are, and quickly realize we might be in someone’s backyard. 

​

[jumps to dialog]

Woman: So do you think this is granite here?

Brenna: This IS. This whole vineyard’s granite. Look at the soil. Look! Look at the little decomposed granite sands and gravels.

[jumps to narration]

Brenna (Narration): We observe what we can and scurry our little selves right out of there feeling like triumphant explorers as we make our way back to the car. 

[jumps to dialog]

Brenna: We’re exploring guys!!! [*sarcastic and joyful tone* *laughs at self*]

[jumps to narration]

Brenna (Narration): Standing here, feeling the cool breeze on top this 350 million year old granite terroirs, this area starts to make a bit more sense. And I’m blown away by how unique it is compared to the rest of the Côte. I’d always imagined that the rustic reputation of these southern, sometimes south-facing sites, had to do with warmth; but the reality is just the opposite. The size of the Dhuene Valley actually makes Maranges significantly cooler than the more famous appellations just north of us. So at least some of the angularity of the wines can probably be attributed to the climate. Granitic soils tend to be very sandy, acidic, and though they can be shallow, they also lack the richness of clay. Basically they’re the opposite of clay limestone soil and it’s hard to imagine how all of this translates to a Burgundian wine. 

1.2 Cassiopee Intro and Discussion 

Brenna (Narration): To get some insight about this increasingly intriguing appellation, we look to some of the newest and brightest rising stars of the Côte d’Or. In the quiet village of Sampigny-les-Maranges, we find Talullah and Hugo of Domaine de Cassiopee.

Daniel Johnnes: I was introduced to them by Fred Mugnier and Jean-Marc Roulot.. and I went to visit them. And you know, sometimes when you meet a winemaker you can see something in their eyes, and something in the way they speak, and you get a gut feeling that they’re going to do something and they’re incredibly passionate and committed. And I feel that way about them. I feel they have a very promising future. And, I think it’s incredibly exciting to see that; they’re a great example of passionate, quality-driven, young people going to appellations that are lesser known and elevating them — drawing attention to them where they should be appreciated. 

Tallulah Dubourg: This is nice. It’s nice moments.

[Walking sounds on compacted ground. A mental hinge squeaks]

Tallulah Dubourg: Be careful to your head.

Brenna: Oh, this is so beautiful! 

Tallulah Dubourg: So here, this is the smallest plot we have because this is Maranges Le Bas du Clos. So it’s Maranges Village Rouge, le bas du Clos. This is the more prestigious appellations we have for the moment. We are looking for a plot of 1er Cru but it’s like the rest of the Côte, it is really difficult to find of course, and the vineyard is really old. It’s 90 years old. So yes, we have in the global area, we have 5 hectares; we have in the productions 60% of red, and 40% of white — chardonnay and aligoté. We arrived on the estate in February ’20. We bought a big block of 5 hectares with the most parts Haute Côte de Beaune and a very small part of Maranges Villages and the vineyard wasn’t in organic farming before — not at all. It was in chemical; there was no grass and nothing on the soil; it was obvious for us to begin by organic farming and we’re going to be labeled next year. It’s only because we believe a lot in organic farming. And this is the first step a better viticulture. This is not the final step. But the first step, so yes. We work only Hugo and I on the estate. 

Brenna: It’s an interesting time to be starting, but when you look at vintages of ’20, ’21, and ’22; they’re very different vintages so you’re getting a lot of information. Maybe?

Tallulah Dubourg: Yes. It was really interesting to talk about it, especially in ‘21. We talked a lot with other winemakers here, and lots of people said ‘oh, it’s a very bad moment for Hugo and Talullah to begin!’ And we said ‘I’m not sure of it because we’ve only have 1 or 2 vintages behind us. So, ’21 was really difficult. So, we say okay, each vintage will be challenge, but after ’21 we are not afraid of the rest. We said ‘ok, ’21 was probably one of the worst.’ This is our feeling. And I think this is our feeling because we are only 27 and we have lots of energy, and, I understand because this job is very, very hard, so I understand when people after 40 vintages say ok I’m fed up with that. I understand a lot. Really.

Brenna: And so, why Maranges?

Tallulah Dubourg: At the beginning Hugo told me at the end of our studies in Bordeaux, he said ‘ok I’m going to work in burgundy because I’m completely  fan of Burgundy since many years.’ I said ‘ok, I’m really curious.” So I made an internship in Clos de Tart when it was with Frederic Mugnier and then my schools said ok, it’s good thing if you can do an internship in a foreign country. Ok, I said I need to go in Switzerland. So I go and work with Marie-Thérèse Chappaz 6 months and at the end of my diploma, and I said to Hugo ok I loved my internship in Clos du Tart and in Burgundy, and I want to discover and to work there and to learn about the small plot, and the diversity of the terroir, and so yes, I began to work with Benjamin Leroux. At the end of 1 year and a half with him (which was amazing!) Hugo and I talked about do our own wine, but we thought that Burgundy would be impossible - we aren’t billionaires. It’s ok. 

Brenna (Narration): Talullah and Hugo searched all over for their own vines. From the Jura, to the Rhone where Talullah’s from, and even explored opportunities elsewhere in the Côte d’Or, but were outbid at the last minute on two separate occasions. 

Tallulah Dubourg: So then we were a bit sad and said ‘ok maybe in Burgundy it will be impossible. And one day I was searching on internet and I discover on website it was just talking about one house in Maranges and only 16 hectares of vineyard. So, this plot. We said ‘ok, maybe we can begin by that.’ So we don’t know really well Maranges, and so I called the guy and he said ‘but who are you? What is your past, etcetera?’ We said we are students in engineering and viticulture. We worked with this guy, this guy this, this winemaker, etcetera. And he said ‘ok, well maybe it will be a good thing to come because it  is - the project is 5 hectares, 1 house, 1 cellar…

[Brenna chuckles]

Tallulah Dubourg: We said ‘ok, are you kidding?’

[more chuckling from Brenna]

​

Tallulah Dubourg: He said ‘non, non, no - I don’t put that on the website because I will receive many many many… and the day after we were here. We visited the house and we completely fell in love with the house and with the place because the place is really nice for us. Because we have lots of trees and lots of different plots, and it’s so different than the rest of the Côte and so we made an offer maybe one week after. Before we see the bank! chuckles.. 

Brenna, adding: We’ll figure it out!

​

[Tallulah chuckles in agreement]

​

Tallulah Dubourg: Yes. It’s gonna work! [more laughter] It was like a bluff. And the bank said ‘ok.' Because in the Maranges, really, the plots are really, really, really, less expensive than in the rest of the Côte and so yes, But we feel now, really really really lucky to find this kind of project. We are very lucky and we know it. 

Brenna: And then what is the reception as far as selling Maranges?

Tallulah Dubourg: Historically, in the Maranges, lots of people sold the grapes to cooperatives and so nobody made bottles in the past. The goal was to make lots of, lots of yields, but the ripening wasn’t achieved every year. It was our challenge, really, to make Maranges with good yields but not so much, and with good ripening. But with this kind of vintage like ’20 and ’22 it’s easy here to have now, a good ripening. In the past I think it was really difficult. So lots of people at the beginning of our project said “ok, it will be impossible to sell 20,000 bottles of Maranges. It will be impossible!” But yes, it was possible! [giggles proudly to acknowledge her success] But with a very, very big work of the commission part. It was interesting for these people that we work in Maranges like we work in vosne-romanee. And so the beginning was extraordinary for us. But yes, we have to do better each year of course. This is our challenge and our goal.

Brenna: And then, the other thing I want to talk to you is the little bits of granite that you have…

Tallulah Dubourg interrupts: Yeah! 

Brenna, continues: …which is also another kind of huge challenge to be in the Côte d' Or and to be working with something that’s completely different.

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah, of course. This plot is in the slope of Haute Côte. At the beginning it was maybe the plot where we had to do the biggest job. We were afraid in ’20 it’s only sand and granite. There is no limestone at all. No clay at all. It’s only sand. So a really dry vintage like ’20 and ’22 [makes heavy, airy *whhh* sound suggesting exhaustion or physical challenge] we said ok maybe the vineyard will die. We don’t know how to make it. But the result in the bottle is really interesting. Really really. This is the plot we harvest in the morning of the last day. It’s only about 12 or 12.5 degrees (implying degrees Brix). The grapes are big and the skin are very thin so we can’t feel tannins. [church bell begins to chime background overhead] We are not sure that it is because of the selection of the material vegetal or if it’s because granite. I think granite has a very big consequence fo the profile because when you taste the chardonnay, which is just next to the Pinot on this plot, you can feel exactly the same feeling for the pinot noir on granite. It’s like a really shy and fragile, and this is the only plot where we have this kind of evolution. 

Brenna: hmm

Tallulah Dubourg, warmly adding: We’re going to taste it in the cellar. If you have time.

Brenna, in a gracious tone: oh great! If you have time, we’d love to!

Tallulah Dubourg, graciously and welcomingly speaking: yes, yes.. we have time… 

[fade into transition, resume sound of walking steps]

​

[Interlude - ambient music]

1.3 Cassiopee Cellar transition to Natural Wine

​

[Musical transition with sounds of footsteps moving into the cellar. Light laughter and clinking glasses can be heard.]

Brenna (narration):  We head down into the cellar where Hugo is finishing up a tasting with a couple of lovely German sommeliers. We grab our glasses and take a look at the newly completed geologic maps by Françoise…

German sommelier: …dig holes, uh…

**Laughter**

German sommelier: I wish you all the best with harvest. Crossing the fingers…

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah.

German sommelier: Okay, guys–ciao, ciao, ciao.

​

Tallulah Dubourg: It was a pleasure. Bye bye.

**Musical transition**

​

Tallulah Dubourg: Ah yes, we have the card, yes, if you can look it, yes.

Brenna: Ah, great.

**Rustling around of paper and glasses clinking**

Brenna: And then…so when you think about working with this like tiny little bit of granite, do you think of it as just a different Côte d’Or or do you kind of start thinking about other regions that have granite?

Tallulah Dubourg: Mmm…

**Tallulah swallows audibly and music plays**

​

Tallulah Dubourg: Ah, lots of people said that for us the Pinot Noir on granite was like some red wine they drank in Auvergne. Natural Auvergne wine, I have to precise, because it was really the feeling of people.

Brenna: Uh huh.

Tallulah Dubourg: And I, I think I can say I have the same feeling.

**Music playing**

Tallulah Dubourg: Lots of people said, “But it’s not a Pinot Noir,” when they taste it.

Brenna: Ah, uh huh.

Tallulah Dubourg: It’s interesting because we will taste Hautes Côtes de Beaune Les Paizets and Hautes Côtes de Beaune Les Côtés. 

Brenna: Uh huh.

Tallulah Dubourg: And the feeling is really different, even if it’s only, yes, 50 meters far.

Brenna: Huh.

Tallulah Dubourg: It’s interesting, really interesting. We’re gonna compare it. Ah…ça se amo… 

​

**Sound of glasses clinking and music continues to play**

Brenna: And so this is the Pinot Noir Hautes Côtes on…

Tallulah Dubourg: On granite.

Brenna: On granite.

Tallulah Dubourg: Yes.

Brenna: And the vines are how old?

​

Tallulah Dubourg: Uh, 45, 

Brenna: Okay.

Tallulah Dubourg: 45 years old, yes.

**Music continues to play and sounds of aerating the wine in the mouth**

Tallulah Dubourg: Mmm, and concerning the winemaking, it, it, we do exactly the same thing on each wine but, especially on this one, we try not to extract too much because the tannins are not really interesting to extract.

Brenna: Uh, huh. I really see what you mean with kind of the fragility of it…

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah.

Brenna: …and like, the very fine, but separate tannins, you know.

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah.

Brenna: You know, kind of like granular but very small.

**Soft music plays**

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah. We can feel that the wine is not really stable and we use the lesser for this year compared to the previous year so it’s another risk we take.

Brenna: Mmm.

Tallulah Dubourg: But for us it’s interesting

**Transitional music plays**

Brenna (narration): Tallulah and Hugo come from very technical backgrounds-–and hold precise engineering degrees…but the wines they’re making lean heavily towards the side of natural wine.

Tallulah Dubourg: But it’s important for us today to forget lots of thing.

Brenna: Mhmm.

Tallulah Dubourg: And not to put new oak and lots of sulfur and, and not indigenous yeast, etc. If our teachers saw how we make wine today…

**Laughing**

Tallulah Dubourg: “Oh my god! You are crazy!” Ah, so yes, it’s really interesting.

Brenna: Was there any like, moment or decision or experience that you had that kind of shifted you in that direction?

Tallulah Dubourg: I think I decided to change my uh, way of thinking when I discovered the natural wine. It’s completely crazy and I think it was at that moment we decided to, to let the creative part go because this kind of vinification for us it was the best part to feel what we wanted to mean by the plot and what we wanted to find in the grapes on the plot but the goal is not to let the wine do what he want to do because naturally the wine become vinegar if you don’t know something and it’s not so good to drink.

**Tallulah and Brenna laughing and music starts up again**

Tallulah Dubourg: The thing that we want to explain to people who come is that we know something because we study it but it’s nothing compared to ah, to learn each vintage and to begin to manage (inaudible). And so yeah, we gonna try each vintage to do what we think it’s a good wine. We have lots of things to learn, especially about the terroir. Really, because it’s only about feeling for the moment.

​

Brenna: Mhmm. Well, you have lots of time. The geology doesn’t change which is the nice thing.

**Tallulah laughs**

Tallulah Dubourg: Yeah, I think we have time.

Brenna: Yeah.

​

1.4 Natural Wines in the Côte d'Or

**Musical transition and sounds of movement in the cellar**

Brenna (narration): It would be difficult to discuss the future of Burgundy without considering the rapidly growing movement towards natural wine that’s blossomed over just the past few years…

Rajat Parr: Natural wine in the Côte d’Or…oof.

**Raj pauses, exhales, and laughs**

Rajat Parr: You know there’s a voice inside me which is like, shrieks at natural wine in the Côte d’Or, like, “ahhh!” It’s not going to taste the same and that’s the honest truth. When you make wine from a great terroir in any great place, and specifically in Burgundy, and if you make it in a natural way, it has a different architecture. The aromatics are different, the texture is different, the energy is different.

**Upbeat drums playing**

​

Brenna (narration): The Côte d’Or is a region steeped in so much tradition, and such steep prices, that it seems like the very last place natural wines would take hold–there’s just too much at risk, too many forces working to keep things the same, and too much pressure to satisfy customers paying the highest dollar

But when we look a little closer at the characters who make up the Côte d’Or… maybe it isn’t so surprising…

Some of the greatest names in the Côte d’Or, and therefore in the winemaking world, were key pioneers in the movement away from conventional or industrialized farming, into an era of organics and biodynamics…

Jasper Morris: The fascinating thing for me, because you still hear people say, “Oh people are only using those labels for marketing purposes.”

Brenna (narration): Here’s Jasper Morris…

Jasper Morris: …but when you consider domaines like Romanée-Conti, Leroy, Lafarge, Lafon, Leflaive, Bonneau du Martray etc. etc. etc., all these people who only were going to lose ah taking on these wild ideas, and you know, they clearly weren’t doing it for marketing purposes.

​

Brenna (narration): And Aaron Ayscaugh…

Aaron Ayscough: Because of course if we talk about natural wine we have to talk about when wine became not natural, or less natural. And I think it’s more recent than people realize.

​

Jasper Morris: First of all, you have oidium, mildew, phylloxera, you have some really tricky vintages at the beginning of the 20th century. The vast majority of people were seduced and I, I don’t see how we can blame them. You were considered a fool if you didn’t use these things but it turns out that chemical fertilizers and chemical weed killers have been bad.

Aaron Ayscough: I think that’s why, I mean a lot of the natural winemakers, the young winemakers, in the social circle around the Côte d’Or, they still love drinking old Burgundy because it’s a little window into an era where the options for intervention were much fewer because you know, herbicides only came in in the 1970s roughly, you know. And the synthetic pesticides, you know a little later. And, but, for whatever reason, I think the cultural memory of excellent small-scale, hand-vinified, you know…

Brenna: Yeah, yeah

Aaron Ayscough: …traditional winemaking without too much chicanery ah, persisted in Burgundy better than a lot of places.

Brenna (narration): But, even the most ardent biodynamic farmers don’t necessarily align with the pillars of the natural wine movement.

Aaron Ayscough: In my experience nobody in LA was talking about the natural wine in 2006.

Brenna: Yeah.

Aaron Ayscough: And I think it was kind of the era where a lot of the high profile biodynamic winemakers, they were considered to be the most radical people working because biodynamics, when you describe it, it sounds so witchy and non-scientific and all these things and so, you know when I arrived in Paris I was like trying to find biodynamic wines…

Brenna: Mhmm.

Aaron Ayscough: …because that seemed like the most natural thing. And I think initially one confuses biodynamics for natural wine and things and it was in the first year or two that, after I got to Paris, where I started to realize that natural wine really was its own subculture as very distinct from the biodynamics movement. I mean, there’s overlap but it is very much a distinct subculture.

Brenna (narration): I ask Aaron to help define what exactly Natural Wine means.

Aaron Ayscough: Because of course the whole meaning is an ideological battleground because I think the key schism in the present day is between a very radical definition of natural winemaking with absolutely nothing added, nothing removed, and more than organic farming. And between a more pragmatic definition of natural winemaking that really comes out of a tradition of great winemaking. And so it’s important to keep the spirit a little bit. You know, like punk.

**Some drum beats pick up**

Aaron Ayscough: Which is basically, you know, historically, almost contemporaneous with natural winemaking but it required a big revision of what we considered beautiful in songwriting and production and then of course it became applied to every media. There’s punk films, there’s punk books, there’s punk sculptures, there’s dance punk. It was also extremely corporatized. There are pop punk skate fests sponsored by Sprite, you know…

**Brenna laughing and drum beats continue**

Aaron Ayscough: …and things like that. And these days if you want to determine whether something is punk you compare it to the spirit of Patti Smith and of Johnny Roth, and the Modern Lovers and ah, things like that. So, I think a similar approach works to natural wine in terms of kind of determining does it fall within the natural wine camp enough to refer to it generally as natural wine.

Brenna (narration): And to describe the history of Natural wine here in the Côte d’Or…

Aaron Ayscough: It comes from the Beaujolais.

**Brenna and Aaron laughing**

Aaron Ayscough: I mean within the Lapierre lore, there is a direct link to the kind of the first glimmers of this natural wine aesthetic in Burgundy. It’s via Philippe Pacalet, Lapierre’s nephew, who also interned for Jules Chauvet and then, depending on who you speak to you get different stories but, who put Henry-Frédéric Roch? He had just founded his Prieuré Roch estate and it was either Néauport or Piquet Boisson who put him in touch with Philippe Pacalet and it was Roch, who wanted to bring things into this natural direction, who hired Pacalet and kind of gave Pacalet free reign of vinifying these great terroirs in Vosne-Romanée and all these things. 

Brenna: Mmm, mhmmm.

**Music playing**

​

Aaron Ayscough: And so that was in the very early 90s. He’s generally credited with having really kind of pioneered the general kind of more, the aesthetics of natural winemaking within Burgundy. But then there’s other stories as well.

Brenna (narration): The timing of natural wine in the Côte d’Or really isn't all that far off from the more developed natural wine scene in Beaujolais just 100 km to the south…but the aesthetic didn’t take hold in the same way until much more recently…

Aaron Ayscough: It doesn’t have that same phenomenon where like you can’t talk about the Beaujolais without talking about its key natural winemakers whereas it’s still much more controversial within Burgundy…

**Aaron trails off and transitional music continues to play**

Brenna (narration): Today, depending on the circles you hang out around, the natural wine movement in the Côte d’Or can feel like it's determined to make up for that lost time…

Paul Wasserman: Natural wine in Burgundy, it’s really surprising how quickly it’s evolving. I didn’t think it would. And it’s not just natural wine. It’s classic domaines taking inspiration from the natural wine movement, mostly in extracting less and using much less sulfur. But there’s this whole other group that’s skirting the line between classic and natural and those are very exciting wines too. I think it’s not a fad and some parts of the natural wine movement are important and will change the game.

Rajat Parr: For many years we thought, oh, it’s not evolving enough and it’s stuck in time. And now some people say it’s moving too fast and it’s moving! It’s, the world is moving so fast but I think that it’s important, you know, everyone has their own viewpoints you know, so I think it’s moving at the right pace.

**transitional music**

​

Pt 2: The Hautes Côtes

2.1 Intro to the Hautes Côtes

**transitional music continues as Brenna narrates*

Brenna (narration): It seems like the hub for much of the natural wine movement today isn’t quite out in the open on the main slope, but tucked back into the hills of the Hautes Côtes, or the high slopes that sit nestled up and behind the main slope… Part of this is likely due to the natural wine darlings Christian and Morgane of Domaine Dandelion, based in the quaint little village of Mavilly-Mandelot.

​

Rajat Parr: The Dandelion wines are dear to my heart. I love the wines, you know. It really is the poster child of natural wine in Burgundy, especially in the Hautes Côtes.

Brenna (narration): Mavilly-Mandelot is located in the Hautes Côtes de Beaune, just up and over or Northwest of Pommard. You might imagine that these vines are just right above the main slop, sitting atop the plateau just behind the trees that mark its crest. But, as always, it’s more complicated than that. Many of the Hautes Côtes vineyards are on their own slopes, often associated with their own fault systems that have molded the topography in totally different ways. Mavilly-Mandelot, for example, is about 6 km away from the village of Pommard. But there are also plenty of examples of Haute Côtes vineyards that are immediately adjacent to village vineyards as well.

Paul Wasserman: There’s no general setup. There’s pockets all over the Côtes. There’s, you know, a big pocket in the Côtes de Beaune that includes Meloisey, Mavilly-Mandelot, Nantoux. A little even higher after Saint-Romain towards Auxey, in places like that. There’s a big pocket above Vosne Romanee. There’s a pocket above Nuits-St-Georges in Chaux. And there’s no logic to it yet, and it’s getting the spotlight because the talent’s exceptional. But there’s not a sense of place, yet, that I can tell.

Brenna (narration): The Hautes Côtes is broken into two extremely broad categories: the Hautes Côtes de Beaune and the Hautes Côtes de Nuits. 

*transitional music starts*

Brenna (narration): Some of the Hautes Côtes de Beaune vineyards near Maranges actually extend South of Maranges. Some of these vineyards are on the granite and tertiary deposits we saw earlier, while other vineyards are on the exact same geology as the vines of the main Côtes. And yet still others, like those near Mavilly-Madelot, are on rocks that correlate more to the geology of the Jura than to the Côte-d'Or.

Rajat Parr: I think that the Haute Côtes is totally different than the Côte-d’Or. You can find similarities, but the structure of the wine is very different. Just how severe the acidity is is very different. I think in time we’ll see with biodiversity, with the high level of farming, with vine age, I think it’ll kind of create its own personality. But I think you really do need another 10, 15, 20 years to see as the vine age…

[Raj fades out as he continues talking and Brenna begins narrating]

Brenna (narration): In general, the Hautes Côtes is, in fact, higher than the main slope. And most of the vineyards were known to struggle to get ripe most years, a factor that looks awfully appealing in hot, recent vintages.

Paul Wasserman: Well traditionally, it was ignored. Let’s face it. And the vines are very often farmed differently. They’re wider spaced, and they’re higher. It was easier to farm, for sure, that way. And maybe they farmed other things as well. So they didn’t often have specialized tractors, <<enjambeur>>. So it was much easier for them to space the vines more so they could use a normal tractor to farm. I heard that the higher canopy, the higher vines, was related to frost issues. Less close to the ground, less risk of frost. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s what I always heard. And, a fair amount of the vines were actually sold for the production of Cremant. How did that taste? I don’t know, we never drank it. We could afford all the rest, so…why bother?

Brenna (narration): Here the vines are spaced wide apart and they’re trained higher, meaning, among other things, that yields can be significantly higher than in the high density plots below us.

Paul Wasserman: Lower planting density opens the door to different farming. Specifically, maybe less tilling because there’s less competition. So, perhaps, this plantation density can offer some great opportunities for regenerative farming. So there’s something kind of hopeful about it, in the sense.

*transitional music starts*

​

2.2 Pho Lunch

Brenna (narration): Given the cost, quirks, and climate, it’s no wonder that the Hautes Côtes has become a sort of oasis for natural wine. But as Aaron previously described, natural wine isn’t a recipe or a strict set of guidelines. It’s an aesthetic, and something you can feel.

A group of people talking and laughing in the background fades in, a few words and phrases can be caught and the name “Andrew” comes through clearly above the laughter

Brenna (narration): Early on in our journey, we were lucky enough to be invited to a lunch hosted by Matt McClune of St Romain Coffee on a bright Sunday afternoon…

[Sound of a chime ringing over people chatting in the background, and the transition music fades in]

Brenna (narration): Matt is making an epic feast of Vietnamese Pho soup for some of his friends [background sounds during a pause], mostly characters within the local natural wine scene, some based in the Hautes Côtes. 

Background sounds intensify, as if the party’s conversations are growing, and the transition music continues.

Brenna (narration): He has been cooking the broth for over 24 hours. There’s a counter full of fresh greens, a wood burning oven crackles in the kitchen.

The party noises fade back in, and Matt asks someone “If you could get a small, round bowl from the shelf, that would be great”. There’s a baby half-crying for food in the background. Food is being chopped. “Thanks, that’s great, that’s great.” The party continues until Matt raises his voice again over the crowd: “Please, find a table. Find a seat. Take a seat please.” A female voice adds “Before it gets cold, everyone!”

Brenna (narration): Happy faces gather around a long wooden table, quickly filling up with bottles. Some are locals, some are expats, many of the couples a combination of both.

Matt (at the party): So, you guys, there’s lime, mint leaves, fish sauce. The fish sauce is super good, I recommend adding fish sauce. Fresh chiles or sriracha, if you want.

The party claps and cheers in appreciation for the spread laid out on the table.

Matt (at the party): Thank you for coming everyone, this is fun.

Voices from the party return their thanks. The party conversation turns into multiple overlapping conversations at the dinner table, scraps of which come into focus for a word or a short phrase before drifting away as another word or phrase takes its place. Someone starts playing Debussey’s Clair de Lune in the background.

Brenna (narration): Eventually, Matt’s son Jack begins to play the piano in the other room.

Background sounds fade back in, and slowly a languidly played version of Clair de Lune starts to assert itself above the general party conversation and noise.

Brenna (narration): We drink out of simple, mismatched glasses. And soon, the light conversation turns toward the seriousness of our climate, of how we treat our planet, of the desire for trees and crops and vines to remain together, of the essence and the meaning of making wine in the Hautes Côtes and in the Côte-d’Or. There’s a lot of love and feeling and intention here. Technically, we are in St Romain, which is not the Hautes Côtes. But, I think we’ve found the aesthetic.

Jonathan Purcell: When you’re here, there’s a cool place to be. And, uh, I spent a few months in [mumble] in France, to figure out where I might want to install myself and try to work and be an apprentice. And the most welcoming place was Beaune.

Female voice: Cause it was like, I’m not going to stay here. Like, I’m not in wine. Jon is making wine, I’m not making wine. But in the end, I like it a lot, because it’s people, food, and wine. It’s what makes life interesting. Burgundy has something really special in terms of bringing people together, I think.

Baby makes crying-cooing noise

Christian Knott: Yep, I mean Burgundy obviously is like a [mumbling] a lifestyle

Brenna (at party): You have the opportunity now to retain diversity as opposed to having to decide fifty years from now to do the painful thing of stepping backwards which is worth fighting for…

Female voice: The environmental problem of the world…

Brenna: Exactly

Female voice: Because nobody wants to take a step backwards of what we need to do in our environment to understand it and to make it better…

Party fades out as piano comes to foreground for the final bars of Clair de Lune. As the piece concludes, the party thanks Jack for playing and applauds him.

​

2.3 Tasting the Hautes Côtes with Petit Roi

Brenna (Narration): As much as this aesthetic helps to define the feeling of the Hautes Cotes, that doesn’t yet fully describe the terroirs or the wines… so to get a bit more detail we head down the slope to the village of Chorey-lès-Beaune to taste through some of the purest expressions of the Haute Cote with Seicii Saito of Domaine Petit Roi… 

Brenna (Narration): We visit with Seiichi on one of the final days of harvest 2022 – as some of the last grapes are being pressed off in the cellar.

Paul Wasserman: Seichii is quite an unusual character. First of all he’s Chinese and Japanese. He was born in China, but when he was 11, he evidently moved to Japan to be reunited with his grandmother. And he was studying environmental studies and followed his professor back to China, where they were studying desertification, and Seichii thought that one of the solutions for this would be to find a crop that needed very little water but had an economic return. And the lightbulb went off and he went - the vine. And he started tasting wine because of that and he completely got hooked, so when he returned to Japan he dropped his studies and basically visited every single Japanese winery you can think of. And eventually he stumbled upon someone who said, okay if you want to make wine move to Burgundy and call Chisa Bize. And he ended up in Burgundy, I believe in 2006, University of Dijon to study the language, and he became the Bize’s helper. Vineyards, cellar, babysitter, cook… and worked on and off for Bize for a very long time, but also Mugnier, Rousseau, he attended Leflavie’s biodynamic school…

[Sounds of laughter, arrival in cellar]

Paul Wasserman: …the goal was to go back to Bize and work for Patrick.

Brenna: So the goal wasn’t to start your own domaine? Originally? Or did you hope to make your own wine?

Seichii Saito: Uh, no… continues in French.

​

Paul Wasserman (translating): When you work for others, you don’t ever really fully understand what making wine is. There’s always somebody else making the decisions, taking the risks and so he understood that if he really wanted to understand making wine he’d have to make his own.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): So when he started in 2016 with some Côte de Nuits Village, by purchasing grapes, it was almost like writer’s block. He didn’t even know how he was going to do it, what he was doing… After 12 years in the field, he still didn’t have a vision of exactly what he wanted to do.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): He did what he learned. Period. That’s it. He tried to make wine basically. Now he knows. After 6 years, 2022 is his sixth vintage.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): In 2017 he found a few vineyards - Bourgogne Rouge in Pommard and Bourgogne Blanc and Aligoté in Savigny… and still continued to purchase grapes. But that’s really the foundation of the domaine, 2017, for him.

Brenna: When did you start working with vines in the Hautes Cotes?

Seiichi Saito: Responds in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): 2018. He found them in the Classifieds. It’s hilarious in a way because it just doesn’t happen. It was an abandoned vineyard and nobody wanted to work it.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): It was steep, it was on the hillside and it was a bit of jungle - it was uncared for. It took 3 years to rehabilitate the vineyard.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): With climate change, we’re harvesting earlier and earlier so he thinks one of the solutions is to find vineyards a little higher up. For freshness.

Brenna (Narration): Seiichi explains that he’s excited about the potential for the Hautes Cotes, particularly in warmer years, but points out that it comes with some of its own unique challenges…

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): A warm year like this is a really good vintage for Hautes Côtes, 2021 was difficult though. And so there was less sun and of course there was rain, things like that, so it doesn’t ripen, it rots before it does. A cold year is still hard for the Hautes Cotes - which is interesting. We have to deal with the cards that nature deals us. Or, more simply - we do with.

​

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Brenna (Narration): He makes three very distinct bottlings of Pinot Noir from the Hautes Côtes– in the villages of Nantoux, Nolay, and Echevronne – each on different terroirs that make three very different wines.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman: So he has a lot of Hautes Côtes de Beaune. So in total how many hectares of Hautes Côtes? Three, four?

Seiichi Saito: Counting in Japanese.

​

Paul Wasserman: Four hectares in the Hautes Côtes.

Brenna: So how many hectares are you farming?

Paul Wasserman: About five and a half.

Brenna: And so do you think that Hautes Côtes is a solution for climate change?

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman (translating): He says, yes he thinks it’s a solution for the future, but now talking about Hautes Cotes de Beaune is too violent… he means too big of a block, now we have to start talking about Nantoux and Meloisey and Nolay and in his case, above Savigny.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

​

Paul Wasserman (translating): Every vineyard has a lieux dit too, in Echevronne it’s Perrieres in Nantoux is (inaudible) and in Nolay it’s Vignes (inaudible). So they have lieux dits…

Paul Wasserman: Asks a question in French.

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman: Yes, he believes that Nolay is different from Nantoux. And he’s not going to blend them, they’re going to be single vineyard bottlings and he’s going to put the lieux dit up front.

Brenna: And they are individual vineyards, within each village as well.

​

Seiichi Saito: Continues in French…

Paul Wasserman: It’s much more interesting.

Seiichi Saito: Of course.

​

Rajat Parr: You know - they are all mavericks. It’s truly such a unique place, in all of France to make the kind of Pinot Noir, Chardonnay and Aligoté.